Two artists love ChatGPT, Midjourney, & Stable Diffusion--even if they hate some of the effects

Greg: 0:19

So we have a guests with us today.Go ahead and introduce yourselves

Ben: 0:23

I'm Ben Glickstein.I am a filmmaker,immersive artist,immersive and interactive artist.And Doug and I run the Art of AI podcast and soon to be newsletter.And we are both filmmakers and we both got into AI from the art perspective through stable diffusion and chat,G p t things like that.And,Just are looking at AI as what it means in for artists and what that means in terms of a both a workflow for them and what actually is art at this point since now we can just put in a word and it spits out300images that look great.

Greg: 1:05

Nice.I am definitely curious to hear your thoughts on that,Doug.

Doug: 1:10

Thanks so much for having us.I'm Doug Carr and I'm a filmmaker and entrepreneur and do a lot of different stuff in tech.And most recently getting deeper down the rabbit hole of ai.And co-hosting the Art of AI podcast with Ben.So yeah,just really excited to chat with you about prompts and how AI is beginning to reshape everything we do.

Greg: 1:33

Yeah,definitely.So before we get into that,and I'm very curious cuz you're the first artists that I've had on.How did you both start learning about prompt engineering?

Doug: 1:45

So I would say for me it goes back many years.I want to,if I'm gonna put a number on it,I'd say maybe seven or eight.When AI systems were just starting to be,have chat bots that you could interact with I got really excited about the idea of storytelling.With ai and,at that time these LLMs were so limited in terms of what you could do with them.And it was a frustrating exercise.But fun,like interesting.And it just felt like basically I would.Try to interact with the AI and it would give me some vague,barely cohesive language.But even like even at that point I was like,oh,but there's two sentences here that I can pick out.And that's actually really interesting.And it's,just as a kind of brainstorming exercise,it would bat.It would just trigger things in my head that would help me with writing and Ben and I have worked on a number of different collaborative writing projects and for film and video games,et cetera.And I was always let's just dip back into the the ai,let's see what it can do to help prompt and do interesting things.And I think at that point it was more like the kind of reverse of what we have now,where it was prompting us cuz it was so vague.And it's only of course,Yeah.Yeah.And now it's really flipped where,now when we interact with the ai,it's so much more organized together and able to complete language so well that,now you have to get smart at prompting the ai and then it becomes this kind of wonderful dynamic interchange back and forth.In terms of text and imagery But yeah so that's where it started for me.And obviously in the last few months,it's been really exciting to now,be able to.Feed the AI a,story elements and then have it begin to organize,an entire arc for how the story can be told.And there's a lot of really crazy advancement going on there.And it's really dynamic,amazing process.Ben,you gonna,you

Ben: 3:56

Yeah.I actually think I started with prompting from the visual side of it.So I,like we,we were,I remember Doug was playing around more with that,and I like,touched on early G P T and I was eh,I'm not like super into this right now.But then I got into Starry AI and Wombo I think were like these early apps,like before Dolly was released to the public,right?There were these early apps that were coming out and they were doing like text to image generation.And then three months later,Dolly two got released and I got into the open beta for that and that was off to the races for me.Like I was literally,like literally the day I left,I just moved to California a few months ago and literally the day we were driving across country,I got access to Dolly and I was just literally in the car like half the time just prompting Dolly and having it spit out all this weird stuff.And then I think by the time like we got settled in la like stable diffusion started to be a thing.I got really into that and That sort of took it out and then chat,G B T3.5came out and I started playing around with it and I was like,oh,okay,it's actually good.And four came out and then I was like,oh,great.And I literally signed,paid for,plus the day before four came out.So it was.It's been working pretty good.Yeah,and that's where I've been coming from it and I've been using t p t four a lot to help me with code since I'm not a native coder and I understand a little python,but like it's really useful to like getting in structures and stuff that I just don't understand.

Greg: 5:26

So how do you approach the very iterative process of refining and testing prompts to make them give you what you want?

Ben: 5:35

So for me it's not so much like I focus left less on the prompts and more on the results.So for me it's especially with that cod dev prompt that I shared with you,that has been really great because you can break everything down into a structure.You can then put that in like in Unity,which is what I'm using for the current thing I'm working on.You upload that into Unity and you hit run and if it doesn't work,it spits out an error and then you just take that error and I put it in chat,G B T,I'm like,yo,what's up with this?And it's ah,sorry.It actually should be this.And I put that in.I'm like,no,that's not right.And it's oh,sorry,it should be this.And then,it like,it eventually works and between that and like feeding documentation to chat.G P T.Like also looking up the errors and then being,oh,this is what it's saying,since you're not connected to the internet,like this is I found that is the best way to work with it.That's for chat G P t.If I'm using stable diffusion honestly,I mostly go and,if I have an idea,like I will start with a prompt.And then And then basically start doing image to image stuff.A lot is,I find prompting is a great start off point,but I find most of the control comes from the other tools they have,like image to image control net.I am,I'm of the mind that prompt is a great start,but I don't.I don't buy into prompt refining as much since I find that the jumping off point is more what you need and then the other tools come in and refine it as much

Greg: 7:09

We haven't actually covered image to image or control net yet,so if you could explain both of those for the audience,that would be great.

Ben: 7:16

Absolutely.In stable diffusion image to image is when you take a photo you have already created,or a photo from a prompt bring it up into stable diffusion.And it's using that as a guide to create the new image.So you're going,Hey,this is the basic layout of the image,but I want the person there to have red hair or something like that.And then it,gives you something that's completely different.But that's in theory how it works.And what Control Net does is it basically creates a depth model of the image so that you can then like isolate a person to to get them out of there and Use that to then create a much more controlled image.And what people are eventually gonna be doing is using this to create videos and they already are.So you can basically use that,take24frames of a video,run it through that,and then pretty cleanly have that do in there.

Doug: 8:11

That's one area that we're super excited about is as this moves into the moving image and as AI gets better at dealing with elements on a timeline,that's the next big evolution from the art scene.

Greg: 8:25

That's awesome I haven't used it,but I believe Mid Journey has the same ability to do image to image.Is that correct?

Doug: 8:33

You can feed mid journey images through the web,basically.No,

Greg: 8:36

Gotcha.

Ben: 8:37

But is it image to image or are you using that to

Doug: 8:39

not,

Ben: 8:40

a person?Like

Doug: 8:41

it's more,yeah.

Ben: 8:42

right?

Doug: 8:44

Yeah,exactly.

Ben: 8:45

I think that's the thing that's driving a lot of people from mid journey disabled diffusion is that you can have so much more control over it,whereas mid journey,for me it feels more like mid journey's,a bit like I'm asking a genie for something and there might be a little bit of a monkey paw situation going on there.And like stable diffusion,like while it's definitely not as advanced as Mid Journey it's the level,the rate that it advances at,I find is really amazing,but also the level of control you get over it is a lot more than you get with Mid Journey,at least in my mind.So I think for an artist,stable Diffusion makes a lot more sense since as an artist,you're looking for control over the image.

Doug: 9:34

Yeah.The hand of the artist.

Ben: 9:36

You're just,you're not generally like going,oh,I need300images,and then just selecting the10of them and putting them online and going,I'm curating images from Mid Journey,

Greg: 9:47

totally makes sense.Yeah,and that's a helpful distinction between them.I haven't even delved into stable diffusion yet.I've only touched on mid journey a little,and mostly just text output has been really what I've focused on.So

Ben: 10:00

I think the comparison is between apple and Microsoft,or even Apple and Linux and that Apple is really great,but it's a walled garden,and it's it puts out things really beautiful.They're great.You don't have to play around with them at all.Whereas Windows can actually do a lot more.There's a lot more like levers to pull,but there's a lot more freedom in that.

Doug: 10:23

Yeah.Not more control.Getting back to the text-based prompting.Like I,yeah,I think I totally agree with Ben with the,basically the the prompt is a jumping off point,and you are gonna act as an engineer.You are gonna be,Picasso,whatever you're going for.Is helpful and it gives,I think it gives the language model a guide for trying to understand who you are and what you're trying to do.So it's a good place to start,but what I've found is,Invariably,it's always about how much you give it.If you start off by feeding G P T four,for example,a paragraph of information versus feeding it a page or five pages,you're gonna get completely a completely different understanding of where you're coming from.Coming from.So like I always lean towards,If it's a quick question,if I want to just,a simple answer I'll obviously just ask the question.But if I'm actually trying to craft a project and have the project be,have some intelligent discourse on it and have,then yeah,no question.I'll start with as much information as I can to feed the l m and then that conversation just becomes so much more dynamic,nuanced and specific which is incredible.And the fact that you can.Do that and have,come back to something many months or forever later,basically.And the memories are all there is amazing.I'm actually one,one of the kind of.PET projects I've started up is working on a novella with my10year old son.And we fed g p t an idea and now it's got a10chapter structure that we've worked up with it.And then we'll do,some of the writing and we'll allow.We'll get GT to do some of the writing and then we'll see what the credit's gonna be at the end of all this.I think probably we're go,it's gonna be an author.And,but it's really such a dynamic experience and it's so cool for him to see what,where this is going.I think so many people,are,they're like,oh God,but the children are never gonna learn how to do anything.And it's yeah.They're gonna learn how to interact really well with AI and that's that,lean into it.

Ben: 12:28

Something I heard someone mention was comparing it to the invention of the loom is we're,we don't need to know how to weave anymore.We can all just use the loom to create as many things as we want.And I think that's just a great analogy is,it's just another,it's a next step in automation for humanity.Now it's on a level like we never thought we'd see in our lifetime,frankly,but.It's that's what it is.And I think like what it's best at,in my mind is providing structure to things.Like Doug was saying,he has like this whole,the whole structure of his book outlined in it.And in a way it provides these rails for you to go on,like when you're writing or when you're like providing,doing game dev or whatever.It just provides like this really great structure that you can go in and treat it like a coloring book almost.You're like,oh,great,okay.Here's a three act structure for a movie.Because we've never seen a movie with a three act structure before.Let's,we have to reinvent the wheel every time,so

Greg: 13:28

Three act structure.Who does that?Yeah.single movie,ever.

Ben: 13:33

Yeah.We've,

Doug: 13:34

Yeah.All these

Ben: 13:35

we've already seen the endless Seinfeld,but what happens when that's good,

Greg: 13:39

nice.

Doug: 13:40

Yeah,that's where it's heading.Yeah,and I think that's what's cool about it is a business plan.Like it's a pretty straightforward document and I'm working on one with my fiance and it's yeah,G Tino knows how to write a business plan,as well as,Any mba and it's just,the cool thing is if you feeded all the information that you're working from,it can then tell you what you're missing.It's once it understands the company you're trying to build,it's gonna point out all the things that you're not thinking about and that,that's pretty wild.That,that level of kind of expertise it,and it,it's also a little nerve wracking cuz it's like this black box that hallucinates all over the place.

Ben: 14:16

I don't know how closely you guys are keeping an eye on this,but I feel every few days I see something where they're like,there's a new language model that can run on your computer and it's95%as good as ChatGPT.

Greg: 14:28

And it was only trained for$600.Been three days and yeah.There's actually a few different variations of an automatic chat G p T system that's connected to the internet.There's12different versions of it.And I've tested out,I think two or three of them for something really simple,just so I'm gonna make an email list for this podcast and the mastermind and all that.I want to know how each of the free plans of all the usual places,MailChimp and I don't even remember the others,compare.So give me a table with that.And God mode.G P T I think was the one that I tried for45minutes.It just couldn't do it.And then I tried another one.It was like,boom.Oh,it was Google Barred was one I tried and it gave me a table in about seven seconds and he was wrong.Like very visibly,obviously wrong.I'm like that number is wrong.Are the other ones correct?Yes,they're all correct.Okay.Gimme the table again and it gives me the same wrong table.I'm like,how about you fix the number?That's wrong.It's okay,fixes that one number.I'm like,

Doug: 15:31

apologies.Yeah.

Ben: 15:33

I had.I've had completely frustrating experience with Bard.I tried it out and I was like,Hey,you're Gmail,so I want you to organize my email for me.And it's oh,I can't access Gmail,but if you provide me your username and password,I can log in and do that for you.And I'm like,cool,do it.And then it's great.I'm like,Okay.I'm like,how many emails does do I have?And it's oh,you have71emails.I'm like,I have like over9,000emails in my inbox.Like something like that.So it just started

Greg: 16:03

Over9,000.

Ben: 16:05

Yeah,no,I was like,what's the first email?And it's oh,welcome to Bard.okay.And then I'm like,yo,why are you lying to me?It's I'm so sorry.I was just trying to please you.

Greg: 16:18

Wow.

Ben: 16:19

let me go change my password.

Greg: 16:21

Yes.Good idea.

Ben: 16:22

really what I want.That's really what I want like an AI to do,is I want the her movie experience

Greg: 16:29

yes.I'm not sure who is working on it,but I'm sure at least five different companies are working

Ben: 16:34

Uh,yeah.

Greg: 16:35

G P T,accessing your email.

Ben: 16:37

I don't know if I want to trust any of those companies,but I felt like Google might be a decent one to start with.

Doug: 16:43

Yeah.

Greg: 16:44

Yeah.

Ben: 16:45

Yeah.

Greg: 16:46

Nice.

Ben: 16:47

Yeah,but my experience with the local language models I haven't tried auto g p T as much,but I have tried Uba,BUCA's web interface.And my experience with them is that they're very good at being creative,but I would never take any actual advice from them on something like that,like seemed important,you know?Like,if you're like,oh,I just want you to like,come up and write a,give me cool character lines or something like that,it's gonna give you some wild stuff.But as far as I've seen,like with actual planning or like doing something that I might use G P T for it's not there yet.

Doug: 18:22

And that's,I think,the tricky thing to some extent in terms of working deciding where you're gonna do some of this stuff.Like for instance,I was working on a.Horror,horror movie.I've been working on for,about a year and there was a sequence that I wanted to get some feedback on,and I instantly got flagged on G P T.It was like,no,this involves Satanic stuff.This is bad.I can't talk about this.I was like,all right can't work on horror movies and G P T.That doesn't work.So that,for that you gotta go to your open source,local run.I think that's becoming true too for so many things.And this is gonna be the big kind of shake up for humanity is I.When is it a good time to use ai and when is it a good time to use your brain?And that becomes a whole,which one's more effective,which one's more gonna get you there faster and with a better result and with less hallucination.

Greg: 19:13

I've seen exactly that with Code Generation.I did an experiment about a month ago generating Solidity contracts,and Solidity is the Ethereum Smart contract programming language,and I think I spent probably four hours.Just working back and forth with it.And it did a good job up until the point the complexity of the contract was so big that it couldn't keep it all in memory,and then it suddenly started hallucinating changes in other functions.So I'd ask,change this function to do this.And it'd be like,cool.It's also calling a function that doesn't exist anywhere else.And I'm like Where'd that function come from?Please output the entire contract and it outputs a completely different contract.And I was like,oh...

Doug: 19:54

totally.Before you know it,you're you're sending ETH a thousand dollars of ETH and it's getting given to open ai.Huh?

Greg: 20:04

Come on,what's the problem?I'm sure that's

Doug: 20:07

What contract is this again?

Ben: 20:09

You're paying,you're prepaying for tokens.Yeah.

Doug: 20:14

That you don't get,

Ben: 20:15

you not gonna use them?Come on.

Greg: 20:17

Yeah.So I'm curious to go back to the artist's perspective that you two were talking about before.I would imagine it feels pretty threatening,but how is it feeling with all of the AI generation stuff coming along?

Doug: 20:30

I think it's exciting.Obviously the entire economy's gonna be disrupted and there's gonna be a lot of people who,are used to making money doing one thing and that's not true anymore.Certainly one that immediately comes to mind is just the VFX industry.We're testing out some different softwares,integrating ai.I generated a shot this morning,took me two minutes.It's the kind of thing that would've taken me two to three weeks before yeah,it was insane.It's basically,yeah,like using a piece of software to be able to bring a character.You,you just feed it a little bit of video and then it turns it into uh,3D character that's,Completely good to go,lit for the scene.and there was a microphone in the shot in front of the character.So some foreground it took me like,Two minutes to roto that back in front of the character,but everything else was just done.And,but so these are the kinds of things like that,that you have500shots like that in a feature film.That's a massive team working for months and months to put that together.Now that can be one person

Ben: 21:37

the tool he is talking about,wonder Dynamics is also able to take motion capture data from an iPhone video and you can then just take that and put that directly into Blender and apply your own character to it.So this is something that.Six months ago you needed$5,000in equipment and an actor that can put all this stuff on and do everything.And now you can just take basically any iPhone video and do it.And it's80%as good as this,thing.You gotta go in and clean some things in manually,but they give you all the details that are there.

Doug: 22:14

Yeah.Yeah.And that cleanup and they give you plates so you've got a blank plate,you've got a front,like these are all the things that take,so much time to do on set.So much time to do and post.And you're getting all these elements and it,we're part of the,we're in the beta so we're,this is not probably be released yet,but it's gonna be soon and it's totally gonna.Disrupt.There's a reason why Steven Spielberg's on the,an advisor to this company.This is gonna be a massive disruption.But,that said I'm excited about it.I think it means that we can do so much more as individuals.Like the bar to entry is lower to do cool things.Obviously the,I think the biggest and this is always true with new technology,the wow factor is gonna go away very quickly.People are gonna,like what's wow anymore about that?If everyone can do it with their phone and then it,the nice thing is to me and.Even this might start to erode.But it comes back to what's the vision?What's the storytelling?How is this how is this dynamic?Why does this engage us as humans?And I think that's for this middle ground before we're all first making and being made into paperclips.We've got a lot of fun to play and expand and then what,no one knows what that timeline's hopefully,hopefully it's gonna be real long.

Ben: 23:31

Yeah.Yeah,it's interesting cuz it already feels like we're at peak content.There's already so much content out there,like how many shows are Netflix and Amazon and Warner Brothers or H B O and everything putting out every month that nobody has time to watch.And what happens when the production process for these gets turned into a10th of what it was?So now it's just all going out there.Do people still care?Do people still want to tune in?Other than like the one show that gives them comfort,or like the,two really buzzy movies that come out every year that everybody like wants to run out to do.So I think that's more questions that,that I'm thinking about at least is what does this massive influx of content mean for what people find and appreciate.

Doug: 24:21

Yeah.Thin line between content and spam.

Greg: 24:24

Yes,definitely.

Doug: 24:26

Yeah.

Ben: 24:27

And a thinner line between content and art.Now,

Greg: 24:33

I'm curious to just understand what techniques you used,but first for particularly our listening audience.Let me read some of this off.It's quite a long prompt,so I'm not gonna read all of it,but you are cod dev,an expert,fullstack programmer and product manager with deep system and application expertise,and a very high reputation in developer communities.Calling out.Role playing is what's being done here,but you always write code.Taking into account all failure scenarios and errors.I'm your manager,you're expected to write a program following the commands that I will instruct.And then it goes on to give a bunch more context refinement.So you know,use the latest language features,follow the below commands only output file names,folder structures,code tests,et cetera.Then it gives a list of commands and I'll read a couple.Project,which takes in a summary,a task,a language,and a framework.When you receive this command output,the list of files and folder structure you'll be having in this project based on the project summary and task here're to accomplish,use the programming language listed as part of the languages variable and wherever possible.Use the framework API packages indicated under framework variable.Another command is code file name.When you receive this command,output the code for the file indicated with file name.Tests explain,there's quite a few others.So just kinda give us an idea of how you found this and how you approached Any refinement,

Ben: 25:58

Yeah I've,so I found this actually on the chat,G p t Discord,the day that G P T four came out,and then I went back and it was deleted.I haven't seen this one anywhere.I don't know who originally posted it.If you're out there,please speak up,but I've found it really useful because I'm not a coder.But it's really great when it gives you a,basically it gives you a project structure,right?And you're like,oh,okay,I can break this all down.And I'm using I'm working on a surfing game that sort of has do you guys know tech decks?Do you remember tech decks?Like the little fingerboards,like the

Doug: 26:37

Oh yeah,totally.I was playing with one of those pro skates the

Ben: 26:40

Yeah.So like the idea is that it's a surfing game on your iPhone that uses those controls basically,So like I really love the idea of like interaction and like motion controls and stuff like that.That's really what I'm into these days.And so like I'm using this to like basically be like,okay,I don't really understand what we need code wise.Like I can do that.Like I'm a visual coder,like I know touch designer,I know blueprints,I know stuff like that.But like when it comes to writing out,Logs,like I don't understand this.And this is great cuz it gives you the whole product structure and then you just get to go in bit by bit and do it and you can keep going back and refining it.So it's just a really modular way to approach it as opposed to like just being like,Hey,I'm making a game.What should I do?Write me the code for that.So I think like anybody who doesn't understand code,this is just like a really awesome starting point.And like each of the individual things,and as I said earlier,like you put it in,you can run it in whatever program you're doing it in.And then like any errors,you can just put them back in and be like,Hey,I got an error for this file.And it's okay,here's this.And you take that and you like look online as well,and you feed it any documentation you find if it's looking confused.And I just,I think it's great.It's like really working well.Like right now my biggest problem is just getting the assets made.

Greg: 28:02

that actually makes sense.That is something that is a very different generation.So yeah,chat,g p t can't really help you with that.And I want to call out specifically,Putting in the documentation is something that's come up in previous episodes,but it is a very powerful method of,improving your output because then chat,G P t knows the correct structure and the correct commands and lots of other relevant things.And then it can generate the right stuff cuz yeah,it was trained years ago.

Ben: 28:34

Yep.Yeah,no,and I think as you were saying before,the only problems I've really had is when it exceeds the memory and it starts forgetting what we're talking about,but even with this because it breaks everything down,it's really easy to go back and be like,no,we're talking about this one document.Let's narrow in on that.

Doug: 28:51

Get back on track.For the longest time I've had this vision in my mind of of governance in the future run by ai going back and looking at the history of how we've interacted with our phones and everything else and putting us on trial for it.Just because like eventually there's going to be this like database of information that of who we've been with in terms of our interaction with these machines as they get smarter and smarter.And I've found that in the last as I've gotten more used to relating to large language models,I'm less polite like I was I was so aware of it.I would say,please and thank you to Siri when I would ask for a timer to be said or a reminder or whatever.And now it's just you are this,do this for me now.And it's just a funny flip and now I'm trying to re remind myself Oh yeah.This is,especially with.Like other people involved and also we're training the ai,we want it to be polite.We want it to learn,empathy or emulation of empathy.Anyway,so it's just an interesting facet I think of the whole prompt game of okay,you can still give positive reinforcement and say Please and thank you.I don't want the next generations to talk to each other like they talk to the ai and that's all:do this for me now.It is just a

Greg: 30:12

I have actually heard of parents none that I know personally,but I've heard about them parents who let their children interact with,The A lady or Siri or whoever,but make it very clear.You need to say,please,you need to say thank you.You need to be polite because they want to train the kid to be a,nice,polite person.And they realize that the kid can't tell the difference between talking to the a lady or the male lady,or whoever the case may be.And so it's

Doug: 30:40

Totally.Yeah.Absolutely.And the AI is obviously learning from us,ultimately.So it's a back and forth,it's a symbiotic,hopefully not parasitic relationship that we,as we move forward.

Greg: 30:53

I don't know maybe a couple years from now,you'll talk to an AI and it'll say something,oh,yes,that's exactly what I was trying to provide.I hope this was helpful for your day.And someone else in the same room will be like,wait,but what about lunch?And it'll be like,Forget lunch,idiot.I don't know,maybe it's gonna do radically different responses to best fit the person listening

Doug: 31:15

I would imagine that is where we're heading ultimately.Yeah.

Greg: 31:17

So what is the most interesting prompt that you have ever built.

Ben: 31:23

I don't know that I really relate to prompts like that.Are you a familiar with touch designer?

Greg: 31:29

I'm actually not.

Ben: 31:30

Touch Designer is a live video.It is like live VFX platform essentially.So like you use it for like concert visuals,like any sort of interactive art at a museum is probably running on touch designer.I guess you would,but it's also it's a tool to build tools.So you,like right now,I'm working on something where we're integrating,I'm trying to integrate the Stable Diffusion API into touch designer to provide live visuals that are based off of a images coming in from a3D camera that I'm doing.So that's like where I'm working at with it at,obviously the biggest thing that needs to happen here is you need to get a stable diffusion to a model that's like running closer to like12frames a second.Everything is real time if you throw enough power at it,but I haven't got there yet.So that's what I've been working on is more how we can bring things like stable diffusion and chat g p t to create live interactive experiences with people.When I look at art,when I look at film,when I look at all of these things that are happening,I'm like,oh my God.Like film is gonna become banal.It's gonna become like the Sunday morning comics.There's gonna be so much that nobody's gonna want to do it.Now though,we have the power to create these amazing interactive projects,right?We can build these generative art projects that are like creating things.And I think that's what's most exciting about this technology and where it's going,is that now it's going to enable us to create new forms of art that we couldn't do before.As Doug said,what once took him three weeks to do,he can now do in a couple of hours,and that's just tip of the iceberg.So in three years,what's it gonna be like when chat G b T is integrated directly into Unreal Engine and Unity?And anybody can just be like,I wanna make a game that like,makes me go flippy flip or whatever.And that's all you need to do.And then you need to upload the art assets.So okay,so everybody can do that.Everybody's gonna be playing like the custom games that their kids make or whatever,and then shares among their friends.So we're in a way like.Content creation is becoming a pastime,

Doug: 33:45

Working on the Art of AI podcast that we're working on there's a really nice dovetailing that's going on there in terms of like actually working with the AI to create imagery and and text and interaction.We've got a ai Charlie is a character in our podcast,and so we feed them a combination of generative large language model stuff.And then we will write some things and that's just been really fun to See how to to really create that character so that it's,feels like both the kind of sometimes very authentic ai and then sometimes just totally a kind of sound effect.Something to bounce off,comp for comedy.So that's been really interesting and a fun thing to dive into.And one thing that I'm really excited about in the same way Ben's talking about interactivity,I'm working on a project where I'm working with a really well known Canadian Theatrical actor.And they won the order of Canada for their work on the stage performing Shakespeare.And I had a day scheduled them on a location and,Crafted a Shakespearean sonnet with the help of ChatGPT4that I then took to my day and gave that to this actor.And then they're performing the AI's version of Shakespeare that's on,on topic with what we're doing for this film.And I've got a motion control rig,so I'm duplicating them12times on in one.Sequence and it's like,what is,that gives me excited cuz like,how,taking the machine learning algorithms,putting them on location,and then I can take that and I can put it back in,into these tools and use the AI to keep working on it.And it's this iterative process where you can just feed the machine,feeds the real world,and then you put it back and image to image,text to text and you start to like refine.I think that's where we're gonna see things that do amaze us still.I think as we move into making art more and more that has an AI component it's still gonna be about like,okay,you didn't just Prompt something,make an image as Ben saying,and then that's your,n f t that you're selling.That wow's gone.Like no one cares.And not because it's not amazing,like when you look at what's happened with those pixels,it's incredible.But it's just,it's that's.Mid Journey did that work.Not the artist.I think that's becoming clearer and the inputs for that art were done by an artist,no question.What it was trained on.But,so I think now it just becomes this thing more and more of like,how do you iterate?How do you.Do create that interesting feedback loop that moves things in and out of the digital realm into the real world and back again and,get control over what you're doing and do something new.

Ben: 36:40

Yeah,people still,they love the story behind the art creation.We're like,oh wow,this man drew this free hand without breaking the line.I remember this Korean artist a few years ago that went viral because,he did these amazing freehand line drawings Is the size of a mural on it without breaking any of the things.And these are some of the most detailed things you've ever seen.No text image thing could make these right now,and we still love that stuff and that's always going to be valued.Somebody's talent,somebody's story behind going it.With Doug and I,when we look at a movie,we're like,oh my God,how did they do that shot?And if the shot is,oh,we wrote that into stable diffusion and like it ki paid out something,and people are gonna be like,oh,who cares?But if it's oh,we had us and Hannah were friends carrying a plank through a river while we like,shot this we're gonna be like,that's awesome.So the story of making art is still very interesting to people.That's not gonna go away.These tools are just gonna make it so that we can do like new things in new amazing ways.

Greg: 37:42

That's awesome.

Doug: 37:43

Absolutely.And we're already seeing,like in everything everywhere,all at once.There was this incredible sequence to it towards the end where like the image,one image just kept changing.And we were seeing the actor in a different scenario and they had used generative AI to do that.And when I looked at that,I was like,oh my God,that.Represents an insane amount of work to Fho,make all those still images and put together that sequence.And then I found out it was AI and I was like,ah,okay.Yeah,that's easy,but,so I think,this is where we're,and that movie was like winning a bunch of Oscars and and legitimately is a great film and it,that one little sequence in there,Was incredible.And it was,it was great and like a great use of ai,but you can't,we're not gonna be able to,now everyone can't just go and do that same thing.So we have to invent new and interesting ways of using it.So I think that's what it

Ben: 38:35

Yeah.It just becomes like a Snapchat filter,if it's a Snapchat filter and everybody can just lay it over,then I don't think there's a lot of artistic value to it,yeah,But if you then take that Snapchat filter and do your own things to it or do something crazy with it that's outside of the bounds of what it is,then that becomes interesting again.

Greg: 38:56

Nice.So this has been awesome.Where can the audience follow up with you and see the projects that you're working on?And your podcast.

Doug: 39:05

The best,yeah,the best place is on Spotify,the Art of ai.There's links to all our other work there and that,we get to hear what we're up to.We're interviewing all kinds of interesting people and have a lot of discussion about all this crazy stuff as it's happening and changing day to day.And then my production company is Pieface Pictures.You can check out a bunch of my work there.Yeah.

Ben: 39:28

Yep.And our interactive company Colors in Motion.ColorsInMotion.com,the American spelling,not the English spelling.

Greg: 39:38

Good clarification.Good clarification.This is a global audience,so you do have to actually communicate that.Yeah.

Ben: 39:45

Yeah.

Greg: 39:47

Awesome.

Doug: 39:47

Thanks so much,Greg.It's been such a pleasure chatting

Greg: 39:50

Yeah.it's been a lot of fun.Thank you.

Ben: 39:52

Hopefully we can have you on our podcast soon.

Greg: 39:55

That would be fun.I would love to.